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Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Bob The Nob1/04/00 23:02:54Subject: Check Mate!post id: 52511Who knows how many possible outcomes there are in chess? This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: AstRoboY1/04/00 23:23:58Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 525194:possible outcomes1:You win2:Your opponent wins3:Draw by mutual agreement4:Stalemate (which includes insufficent moves to mate)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Purple1/04/00 23:24:07Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 525203? win lose draw (I dont play chess - no patience for learning)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)1/04/00 23:33:46Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52522The number of possible outcomes in chess is three:win to black, win to white, draw.The number of possible different games in chess is somewhat larger.Consider:White has twenty possible first moves.Black has twenty possible first moves.The number of possible second moves available to white will depend upon the earlier moves, but will typically be about 25.As the game wears on and pieces are lost, the number of options decreases. At mid game, there might be, on average, 8 available moves per turn. There may be some moves in which one has no option: there is only one move available. Eventually the game will end. A good game might involve about forty moves per player: eighty altogether. Sometimes a game will be longer, sometimes shorter: I'm just trying to demonstrate that the number of possible games must be enormous, and find an order of magnitude. These estimates are all open to question.The thing is, there will be more possible games with, say, 51 moves than with 50, just because there will be more permutations of moves.Let's take a conservative estimate that the average number of moves available to a player at any particular turn is 12. Taking an average game length of 80 moves, we might estimate that the total number of possible games is 1280. This is about 2 x 1086.Obviously, this estimate is extremely fuzzy. I have read that it has not been proven that there is a finite number of possible games. I have (elsewhere) read that there are more possible chess games than there are subatomic particles in the universe (the number of these is about 1081 to 1082.)What all of this ignores is that many (perhaps most) of the possible moves will never be made, because they are completely stupid. At some point after twenty moves I might have 15 possible moves available to me, but normally there would only be about four or five that would merit serious consideration. The number of sensible possible games might be much lower. Suppose the average number of available moves per turn is 5.This would give 580 = 8 x 1055.What I can say for sure is that if the true number of possible games is anywhere near this number, then it is not known definitely to humans: the number cannot have been counted.Consider: Imagine if everyone in the world had a 1GHz machine, and that there was a compute program that was able to calculate a complete new game once per clock cycle (impossible, but let's not worry: I'm overestimating the number of games we could have counted.)Further, let us suppose that everyone of these machines had been operating since the dawn of the digital computer age (say, 1943).The number of games we could have computed, even in this overexagerated scenario, is57 years * 365.25 days/year * 86400 seconds/day * 1x109cycles per second * 6 x 109 computers = about 1.07 x 1028This estimate is obviously going to be much greater than the true total number of games that humans have calculated, but it is still vastly smaller than even a low estimate of the number of possible chess games.8^)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Purple1/04/00 23:51:30Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52524Re:daryns post - I knew there was a reason I didn't learn....This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)2/04/00 0:02:08Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52526Oh, come on, Purple one. It's a great game!In how many indoor games is there no element of chance?Okay, apart from checkers.I've probably posted the following sentiments before, but I am deeply impressed by a game like that. There is no die, no shuffle. Just the decisions made by two human beings. The fact that such a game can be workable says something about the unpredictable nature of humans.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: cerian2/04/00 9:29:23Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52583I think, Daryn, given the strength of your previous numerical explanation, that you deserve your avatar status. However, have you considered the pssibility that perhaps you spend too much time inside?;-)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)2/04/00 9:37:21Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52586However, have you considered the pssibility that perhaps you spend too much time inside?Inside? I'm hang-gliding right now. Haven't you heard of laptops?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: cerian2/04/00 10:29:39Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52598that's what I'm on right now.Hmm, internal remote modem?How does the reception hold up amongst the clouds, and isn't it a little risky swinging in the sky looking at a screen, instead of where you're going?lolBtw, I agree with you about chess.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)2/04/00 10:51:07Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52601I went with Iridium, so the reception's good, but the phone doubles the weight of my hang-glider. I have the keyboard at my toes, and I operate the trackball with my tongue. As for looking where I'm going, I simply trust the Qi.My biggest worry is that I might be hit by a deorbited Iridium satellite.But now, let's get onto something less controversial.Who's WC? Khalifman or Kasparov?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: MichaelT2/04/00 10:55:22Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52602Deep Blue?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)2/04/00 10:59:40Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52603I suppose you're going to tell me that the world's champion sprinter is a rocketcar!!!!This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: MichaelT2/04/00 11:01:23Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52604Well, I'd like to see Shirvo and his winged keel try to keep up with one, or Ben Johnson, with or without chemical assistance... :)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: cerian2/04/00 11:06:33Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52605hmm, kasparov probably. But not hugely interested in following it at that level.Rather play at home, with nice wine and music.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)2/04/00 11:21:08Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52611MichaelT: well, quite. The sad (?) fact is that the period of history when humans and computers are suitable chess rivals is bound to be fleeting. I've stated this elsewhere, but 20 years ago, the idea that a supercomputer would defeat the WC was out of the question. In 20 years time, the idea that a WC might beat the best computer will also seem ludicrous. Although humans and computers use quite different methods when playing, the fact is that humans are only improving very slowly, desktop computers are doubling in speed every 16 months.* Number crunching bulldozes intuition.I don't think this will matter, since people like to see people play people.cerian: You're right. Why does everything have to be a song and dance? I'm not a fantastic player, but I do like a game. I don't mind being beaten. I stay off the wine, however, in order to keep alert.*Actually, that figure is out of date, probably. Moore's law originally stated that the doubling period would be two years. Since the doubling period is, in fact, getting smaller all the time, we may say that computers are getting faster at a greater-than-exponential rate. How long ago did the 500s come out? Anyone here going to buy a 1000MHz machine, or you just going to wait for the 2000MHz?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Tim H(Numpty)2/04/00 13:02:47Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52620I went with Iridium, so the reception's goodI was tempted to believe you Daryn, up until this point. You've obviusly never used an iridium phone have you?:-)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Bob the nob2/04/00 13:50:52Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52629I tink I like first ans cos it timple!I got dis bis book wid five fousin an fwee undrid an firty fwee games dat av been started and you av to finish.According to the Truth no one person has a chance of playing the same game twice.A real answer would be good cos there is a way I just lazy and want someone else to do da work!This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Robert2/04/00 16:42:07Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52659From what I've heard, Iridium/Motorola's sattelites are all going to have the plug pulled on them and be sent to re-entry.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)2/04/00 17:17:40Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52668According to the Truth no one person has a chance of playing the same game twice.Not so. Although the total number of games is enormous, there are many games that have been played many times. These would mostly be the short, simple games involving domeone making a stupid mistake. The "fool's mate" (mate in three moves) has probably happened thousands of times, including once in an international competition! I dare say there is some idiot out there who has done this twice.A real answer would be good cos there is a wayWell, the real answer is that it is not within the capability of humans and their machines to count all of the possible chess games.You got me, Tim! I guess I should have said: considering that I am out in the middle of nowhere on a hang-glider, I have a better chance of getting an Iridium signal than, say, Mobilenet. But you're right, I'm not on a hang-glider.Must click "submit" now. My oxygen's running low, and I have to have the scuba gear back by 7pm.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: cerian2/04/00 22:45:11Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52793good one Daryn!!lol;-)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Martin B3/04/00 10:13:19Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52834HiNo disrespect to Chess, but IMHO regarding skill-only gamesGo is the most advanced because it achieves a level of complexity at least as great as Chess with far simpler and more symmetrical playChinese Checkers is the most accessible and fun game for people that aren't prepared to devote a decade of their life learning how to play the game.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)3/04/00 10:27:12Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52837Yes, I have heard that Go is a very rewarding game. I will have to try it out.I gather it is much more territorial than chess. Is that so?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: sam3/04/00 10:32:01Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52838Excuse my ignorance, but what is Go?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Martin B3/04/00 10:51:19Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52841Go is an ancient game of skill originally developed in China but today popular particulalrly in Japan.It is played on a 19x19 grid. In common with other Oriental games it is played upon the intersections of the grid, not the squares.Each player takes it in turn to place a stone on an intersection. Once placed a stone is never moved, unless it is removed when captured.A piece is captured when all of its orthogonal 'liberties' are occupied by enemy pieces. Groups of pieces that are connected orthogonally stand or fall as a unit. (Diagonals do not count.)There is one special rule to cover the situation where a player who has just had a single piece captured can capture the capturing piece by immediately playing back to the same spot. (Got that? If you really want to know I'll hunt down a diagram.) In such a case, the player whose piece was just been captured must play one stone elsewhere before re-capturing. (Thus giving the the capturing player the opportunity to fill in the square just captured.)At the end of the game, the person with the most territory surrounded (not covered) plus captured pieces) wins. (So Daryn, yes, the aim of the game is to capture territory, and taking pieces is a way of capturing territory.)There, my friends, are the rules of Go. The strategy on the other hand, would take much more than 5000 characters...This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)3/04/00 10:54:21Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52843Thanks, Martin B. I don't think I passed Go.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Purple3/04/00 10:57:39Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52845*groan*This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Dan B.3/04/00 10:58:00Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52846WTF is Go?I think you'll find that a lot of games with some element of chance require greater skill than those that are skill only.Cards for example. I like 500, and I'm pretty good at it. With a good partner, skill can have far more impact than the cards dealt.Dan.PS, No dis to chess, I used to be really good at that too (In primary school).PPS, God I'm modest today...This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: sam3/04/00 11:01:29Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52848Sorry - I'm going to have to call for the diagram... it sounds interesting, but I'm still having trouble understanding it...This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Purple3/04/00 11:02:01Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52849Dan - took me years to get the hang of euchre and 500.....used to make me furious!!Husband took (lots and lots) of time and patience to teach me and now I'm rarely the one doing the streaking :o)PurpleThis forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Purple3/04/00 11:03:45Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52850Check this out SamThis forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Purple3/04/00 11:05:22Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52851Trying a new link for the Go site.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Dan B.3/04/00 11:16:21Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52854My Mum taught me how to play when I was 10. I've played a fair bit since then. I used to have lectures at uni with a - count them - five hour break on Tuesdays. Most people went to the gym, or swimming or whatever. I played 500 for a couple of hours. You can play (almost) anywhere and it's very portable :)Dan.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Martin B3/04/00 11:19:18Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52855This is an illustrated (and comprehensible!) rules of Go (from the site Purple gave).The diagram I was referring to was the 'ko' rule.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: sam3/04/00 11:37:52Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52857I've got to try to find someone to play it with now. Either that, or get around to formatting my computer so I can get java to work again, and play the net games...This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Dan B.3/04/00 11:48:56Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52859Go! Now I know it - The old "Othello" board game. Fwah, using the proper name to describe somthing. geez I tell you...Dan.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Martin B3/04/00 12:07:05Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52862Dan, Go is not Othello.Othello is played on the squares of an 8x8 grid.Go is played on the intersections of a 19x19 grid.Othello involves surrounding pieces from two ends. Go involves surrounding pieces from all sides.There are many other differences.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Dan B.3/04/00 12:23:47Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52869Ah, I see. "RTF page properly - don't just look at pictures" thing again...This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: James Richmond (Avatar)3/04/00 13:14:32Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52877The "fool's mate" (mate in three moves) has probably happened thousands of times, including once in an international competition! I dare say there is some idiot out there who has done this twice.That idiot would be me. Shame, JR, shame!JRThis forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Robert3/04/00 14:03:01Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52889The "fool's mate" (mate in three moves) has probably happened thousands of times, including once in an international competition! I dare say there is some idiot out there who has done this twiceThis must be the pawn-pawn-bishop out one, right?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Robert3/04/00 14:20:58Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52891ATTN Daryn,Do you know about this? Now I have some facts to back up my earlier statement:"On Monday, March 6, 2000, Iridium LLC was granted a funding extension to continue operations through Friday March 17, 2000 by the U.S Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York. Iridium is actively seeking a qualified buyer for the system. However, in the event that no qualified buyer comes forward and provides additional funding by Wednesday, March 15, 2000, Iridium expects to terminate its service at 11:59 pm (EST) on March 17, 2000."(Iridium Web Site)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Dan B.3/04/00 14:33:27Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52892Robert and Daryn, Feed is running a piece written by Bruce Sterling regarding the destruction of the The Iridium Satellite system. I've also linked the folks who are trying to rescue the system, so take a gander for them as well.Direct Rip out of Slashdot.orgDan.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: cerian3/04/00 16:19:15Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52921Oh dear, that's, no doubt, someone's dream down the toilet.Um, you're right Dan, that 500 is a game involving both chance, and skill, and is hugely enjoyable, but I'm not sure it can compare with the level of skill and tactical savvy necessary for chess.Fool's mate is in four moves, not three, isn't it?Pawn, bishop, queen out, queen to king.GO looks great.Can anyone help me with the rules for Solitaire, an old French game - the board game, not the card game - ?It looks exactly like chinese checkers, but all the marbles are one colour - in this case clear. I have been given it as a gift, it came without rules, and can't quite work it out.ThanksThis forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Martin B3/04/00 16:25:15Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52926Put pegs/marbles in all the holes except the central one.Each move you jump one piece in a straight line directly over one other piece, which is then removed.Try to remove all the pegs except one.Bonus points if that last peg ends up in the central hole!Try it with other starting points clear.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: cerian3/04/00 16:43:33Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52933thanks!What do you mean "other starting points clear"?This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Martin B3/04/00 16:49:39Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52935Start with the initial 'space' somewhere other than the central point.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: cerian3/04/00 17:04:57Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 52944great! Ta very much.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Daryn Voss (Avatar)3/04/00 23:01:30Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 53094Hi, Robert.ATTN Daryn,Do you know about this? Now I have some facts to back up my earlier statement:Yeah, that's pretty much what I was alluding to with my My biggest worry is that I might be hit by a deorbited Iridium satellite comment.I don't really have an Iridium phone. It was a fictional element introduced for the purpose of humour.This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages. Self-Service Science Forum MessageFrom: Robert3/04/00 23:08:51Subject: re: Check Mate!post id: 53098Oops! Sorry I missed that :-)This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. 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